Bellarmine · De Potestate Summi Pontificis in Temporalibus · On the Power of the Supreme Pontiff in Temporal Matters, against William Barclay
Chapter 31: A Dialogue between a People Too Devoted to Its Earthly King, and the Pontiff Counselling the People for Its Good
Our translation, from the Latin of the Opera Omnia (Paris: Vivès, 1870–74), vol. XII, De Potestate Summi Pontificis in Temporalibus adversus Gulielmum Barclaium, a treatise of 1610. The Latin source text is public domain; this English rendering is released with the site. Scripture quotations follow Bellarmine's Vulgate citations, rendered in Douay-Rheims wording where he quotes exactly. Click “Show the Latin” for the original (raw OCR of the scan; scanning errors remain — the scan itself is the authority).
People. Holy Father, you are in no way superior to our king in temporal matters; and therefore you cannot hinder the temporal service which we render him.
Pontiff. When your eternal salvation is brought into danger on account of the temporal service which you render the king, then I am altogether superior to your king even in temporal matters; for I ought to direct both him and you to eternal life, and to take out of the way all hindrances which block this journey.
People. Why do you forbid us to do what God commands us to do?
Pontiff. Far from it; I do not forbid this, but on the contrary I rather command you not to do what God forbids you to do. I am the shepherd appointed by Christ, who is the Lord of the flock. You peoples are the little sheep; your kings are the rams. So while your kings continue to be rams, I allow them to rule and lead you; but if they turn into wolves, will it be fair that I suffer the sheep of my Lord to be led by wolves? So by right I forbid you to follow them; for the Lord too forbids this, since the little sheep are ruled by wolves with too great a danger.
People. Is it because it is yours to interpret the will of God contained in the divine law and the Scriptures?
Pontiff. You have said it.
People. But yet that interpretation is not to be used which wholly empties the law, and altogether destroys and dissolves the commandment.
Pontiff. What law of God have either my predecessors or I ever destroyed or dissolved by interpreting it?
People. If there is anything doubtful or obscure in the divine law, we flee to the seat of Peter, that is, to the seat which you now hold, to receive the truth of interpretation; but what is clear and plain of itself needs no light of interpretation.
Pontiff. What then?
People. Since our Lord and Saviour commands us to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's; and then through the Apostle to be subject to princes and powers, and to obey their word; it is yours to declare to us what things are Caesar's, that is, what is owed by us to our king, and what things are God's, that we may render to each his own; and in that distinction we will gladly hear your voice. But when you say, render nothing to Caesar, or to your prince, you contradict Christ, and therefore we do not hear your voice.
Pontiff. When the Lord said, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, he ordered tribute to be given to him who then ruled, and did not compel the Jews to idolatry, and had not yet been deposed by any lawful power; which same thing God ordered long before, through the prophet Jeremiah, to be done toward Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, for the same cause; but when in the time of the Maccabees King Antiochus was turning the people from the faith and divine religion, God did not order them to go on holding him for king, but inspired Mattathias and his sons, most brave men, to gather an army and wage war with Antiochus as with an enemy, and to set the people free. So then you too, Christian people, will render due obedience to a lawful king, and one who does not turn you from the law of God and the Catholic religion, and who is therefore loved by me, the Vicar of Christ, as a son, in those things which he will not command against the law of God and the Catholic faith. But a king who tries, whether by flatteries or in another way, to call you back from the way which leads to life, and who by my sentence has been cast out of the assembly of the godly and deprived of his kingdom, you will not hold for king; but the civil obedience owed to a king you will show to another, who has lawfully succeeded in his place. Further, you will render to God the things that are God's when you worship God with faith, hope and charity, and allow yourself to be separated from him by fear or love of no man. So you will never hear from me, render nothing to Caesar or to your prince; but this you will hear: do not be seduced into holding for Caesar or your prince one who in truth has ceased to be Caesar and prince.
People. We confess indeed and profess that there is room for your Holiness's exposition and interpretation in the observance of the divine law; but we assert that that is not to be admitted which makes natural and divine law a mockery and wholly despised; as, not to wander from the matter in hand: we are ordered to obey princes and powers; your explanations and restrictions in the observance of this commandment, provided they do not extinguish the commandment itself, we gladly embrace as obedient sons; as when you say that no obligation of obeying kings arises from it except in those things which pertain to their temporal jurisdiction, all spiritual things being reserved to the Vicar of Christ and the Church. Likewise when you warn that the king is not to be obeyed in what he commands against divine or natural law, or what is otherwise contrary to good morals. But when you simply and absolutely command that we in no way obey our lawful prince, or his warnings, commands and laws, we cannot obey your command, because this is not to interpret the commandments of God, which is granted to your Holiness, but wholly to annul and abrogate them, which you can in no way do.
Pontiff. In much speaking sin will not be wanting; for you seem to have come out of the school of some Barclay, while you multiply so many words without reason; but you sin more gravely when you presume to teach your teacher and to give law to the lawgiver; but most gravely you offend and err when you impute to the Vicar of Christ that he makes natural and divine law to be held a mockery, and wishes to annul and abrogate the commandment of God about the obedience owed to princes; for nowhere have I or my predecessors simply and absolutely (as you speak) commanded that a lawful prince, or his warnings, commands and laws, be in no way obeyed. These are the calumnies and impostures of your teacher Barclay; for what we say and teach is this, that to a prince excommunicated and deposed by the Church by public authority, who has therefore ceased to be a lawful prince, no obedience is thereafter owed. And this fights with no divine commandment; for the divine commandment does not have it that obedience be paid to him who has ceased to be a lawful prince. But do you attend diligently, and weigh, whether you ought to have greater faith in your father, the Vicar of Christ, and your mother the Church, or in one false brother who seduces you, and brings it about that, against the commandment of God, you do not obey father and mother, while you wish to have a zeal for royal obedience without knowledge.
People. When Christ handed the keys of the heavenly kingdom to Peter, he did not give him the power of making sin not sin.
Pontiff. You do not know what you say; for in a good sense Christ gave Peter the power of making sin not sin, and not sin sin. It is a sin to enter marriage in a forbidden degree, not to fast in Lent, to do servile work on a feast day; and yet all these, and very many others of that kind, when Peter dispenses by the authority of the keys given him, cease to be sins; on the contrary, Peter can add a new degree of consanguinity and affinity, add a new day of fasting, add a new feast day, and from this there will be sins if anyone contracts marriage in that added degree, or does not fast on the added days, or does not abstain from servile work, which nevertheless would not have been sins before. So then it would have been a sin not to obey such or such a king, and yet if by the keys of Peter that king is declared a heretic, excommunicated and deposed, it will no longer be a sin not to obey him. It is true, however, that the keys of Peter do not extend to this, that the Supreme Pontiff can declare that what is sin is not sin, or that what is not sin is sin; for that would be to call evil good and good evil; which is very far, and always was and will be far, from the doctrine of him who presides over the Church, which is the pillar and ground of the truth.
People. We will follow, then, in this part the common doctrine of the canonists, who hand down that a command of the Pope is not to be obeyed if it is either unjust, or if from it many evils or scandal is likely to come, or a disturbance of the state of the Church and the Christian commonwealth is likely to arise; and therefore if the Pope should command religious something which was against the substance of their order, that is, which was repugnant to the rule professed by them, as Felinus interprets on the chapter Accepimus, on faith of instruments, and the chapter Si quando, on rescripts, they are not bound to obey him; as the same Innocent teaches on the chapter Ne Dei, on simony, whom Martin de Caraziis reports and follows in the tract on Princes, question 498, and Felinus on the said chapter Si quando and the said chapter Accepimus. How much less, then, ought the subjects of kings to hear the Pontiff trying to draw them back from the obedience owed to their king by divine and natural law, and sanctioned by the most binding covenant of an oath?
Pontiff. What the common opinion is, not only of the canonists, but also of the theologians and of those skilled in the civil law, nay, of the sacred councils themselves, you can learn from the prolegomena of this book, where by common consent it is affirmed that a king can by right be excommunicated and deposed by the Supreme Pontiff for just causes, and his subjects freed from every bond of obedience and fidelity. And it is not credible that all the canonists fight against themselves. When therefore some of the canonists say that the Pontiff is not to be obeyed when his command is unjust, or a cause of scandals and disturbance: first, they do not speak of the Pontiff teaching the universal Church from the Chair; then, they do not speak absolutely, but conditionally, that is, if it should happen, if perhaps it should come about, that the Pontiff commanded some particular man something against the law of God; for then the doctrine of Saint Peter is well known, Acts 5: We ought to obey God rather than men. But when the Pontiffs my predecessors, such as Gregory VII, Innocent IV and others, wished to excommunicate and depose great princes, and to free their subjects from obedience, they did it from the Chair, in council, with public ceremony, by the authority of God and of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul divinely communicated to them; therefore he who says that the Vicar of Christ so commanding is not to be obeyed condemns the universal Church, and ought to be called not so much a canonist as a corrupter of the canons; and although we do not think that any good canonist has fallen into this error, yet if there were one, a faithful and prudent Christian could securely set the makers of the canons before one or another canonist. But what you say, that obedience is owed to kings by divine and natural law, is true of lawful kings, and those not yet deposed by the sentence of a judge; and since we draw you back from obedience to these, not to those, you either impute what is false to us, or complain of us in vain.
People. If for this cause you do not order us to throw off our king's yoke, that through the obedience shown him the spiritual good is hindered, we answer that whatever evil there is comes from a certain accident, or happens by accident; for evil cannot arise from good, or good from evil, of itself; and that accident we bear with grief, but cannot hinder. We pay the duty owed to the king by God's command, and according to patience in good work we seek glory, honour and incorruption; he, if he abuses the service owed him and so great a benefit of God, will feel God above him as judge and most sharp avenger; it is not lawful for us to desert our duty and pass over God's commandment, that good, however great, may follow from it, lest we acquire for ourselves that which the Apostle announces.
Pontiff. It seems to me to fit you aptly enough what the Holy Spirit says by the mouth of David, the prophet and king: He would not understand, that he might do well. For the spiritual harm, that is, the danger of the subversion of souls, which is annexed to obedience to a heretical king, especially when that king is contriving to overthrow the Catholic faith, is a sufficient cause for the Vicar of Christ, who is set over the whole household of Christ, to strike that king with the sentence of excommunication, and to deprive him of that dominion which he had over the faithful. But when a king, otherwise lawful, has on account of spiritual harm been deprived of his kingdom by the sentence of him who rules the universal Church, the people not only is not bound to obey him, but is bound not to obey; and thereby, when it shows obedience to him deposed by right, it is not by accident but of itself the cause of evil, and incurs the sin of disobedience in order to avoid the sin of disobedience. Nor does it pay the duty owed to the king by God's command; but pays a duty not owed to the king, God forbidding it. But he who denies obedience to a king, as has been said, deposed by right, does not do evil that good may follow from it, but does good that a most grave evil may be avoided; nor does he acquire damnation for himself, but is freed from the damnation which he would otherwise incur. But if you do not understand these things, foolish and unwise people, why do you not hear me, your Shepherd? why do you trust your own judgment? why are you seduced by a stranger? The sheep certainly follow their own shepherd, because they know his voice; but a stranger they follow not, but fly from him, because they know not the voice of strangers, says the Truth, John 10.
People. He who orders us to obey kings, and to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, makes no distinction between good and bad princes, and therefore neither ought we to distinguish.
Pontiff. I add also, with the Apostle Peter, that obedience is to be given not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward, 1 Peter 2. So we do not distinguish between good and bad, while they are superiors; but our question is whether a king rejected and deposed by sentence is to be obeyed; for to him Christ does not order obedience to be shown, and the Vicar of Christ forbids it; therefore he who shows him obedience does not obey Christ, and injures the Vicar of Christ.
People. If, as blessed Augustine teaches, he who has vowed continence to God ought in no way to sin by this compensation, that he should think a wife is to be married by him because she who desires his marriage has promised that she will become a Christian, and so he should gain for Christ the soul of a woman placed in the death of unbelief, who is ready, if she marries him, to become a Christian; what excuse shall we use before God if, that some hoped-for good may come, we violate the religion of an oath and the faith given to God and our king? For nothing is more precious than a soul, for which the Lord and Saviour deigned to die; if therefore, to gain it for Christ, it would not be lawful to sin, for the sake of what thing is one to sin?
Pontiff. Evil things are not to be done that good may come; this is Apostolic doctrine, and thereby ours too; hence it is not lawful to violate a vow of chastity that we may gain souls for Christ; nor is it lawful to do anything against the religion of an oath, that we may save the whole world; but not on that account is it unlawful for me, to whom Christ said in the person of Saint Peter, Whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven, both to dispense in vows and to loose from the bond of an oath; and he who by Apostolic authority has been loosed from a vow or an oath no longer sins against the vow or oath if he does those things which before, bound by the vow or oath, he could not do; for as among men he who owes money to another sins if he does not repay it, but if the creditor has released the debtor from the obligation of repaying, he will no longer sin even if he never repays; so also while a vow or oath is in force and binds, he sins who does not keep them; but if the Vicar of God, by authority received from God and in the name of God himself, relaxes the obligation of the vow or oath, he no longer sins who does not keep them. Foolish, therefore, is that question of yours, for the sake of what is one to sin? as if the Priest had need to learn this from the people.
People. But what you say besides, that you absolve us from the bond of this duty, and declare us absolved, does not take away every scruple from our consciences; but makes us hang in mind and doubt the more about your power; because we know that the precept, of which you promise that you will grant us the favour, is sanctioned by the law of God and of nature; and that your Holiness cannot, not even out of the fullness of power, grant anyone the favour of the natural and divine law.
Pontiff. Now you show yourself altogether unteachable, since you always roll back to the same things. I do not grant you the favour of a natural or divine precept when I absolve you from the bond of obedience; for I do not permit you not to obey the king, which would be against divine law; but I bring it about that he who was king to you is not thereafter king to you; as he who gives a servant his liberty does not grant that the servant be not bound to obey his master, which would also be against divine law, but brings it about that he has no master to obey; and he who by emancipating a son takes him out of the paternal power does not teach that sons are free not to obey their parents, but brings it about that he who was a son is no longer counted a son. And he who relaxes a vow or an oath does not give a faculty of violating vows or oaths, but brings it about that one has no vow or oath.
People. We will obey you, then, in spiritual things, the king in temporal; God commands both, we will render both.
Pontiff. If (as you said a little before) you were hanging in mind and doubting, why in a doubtful matter have you made yourself the judge, and concluded so boldly? God certainly, in Deuteronomy, chapter 17, in doubtful and obscure matters sends men to the priest, and does not wish each one to be judge. And you yourself said a little before that in doubtful matters one must flee to the seat of Peter; why then, in so grave a doubt, did you not flee to the place which the Lord chose, that is, to the seat of Peter? And that you may understand that you have effected nothing by your conclusion, attend first that God indeed orders you to obey the Pontiff in spiritual things, but does not order you to obey him in spiritual things only; nay, orders that consequently you obey him also in temporal things; but the king who reigns lawfully, not the king who on account of heresy or another just cause has been deprived of his kingdom; for you ought not to obey even the Pontiff himself in spiritual things, if perhaps (which we piously believe cannot happen) he had fallen into heresy and were declared by the Church deprived of the pontificate. Attend lastly that a doubt about the power of the Pope, whether it extends to temporal things, is not a doubt about a temporal thing, but about a spiritual and supernatural thing, and one which depends not on the will or judgment of men, but on the understanding of the Scriptures and the interpretation of the divine will; wherefore you ought to have stood not by your own judgment, but by the Church's, in so grave a doubt. And the Church, both through her head, the Vicar of Christ, and through councils, that is, through her principal members, and through the learned theologians and canonists, that is, through her tongues, has not obscurely taught that the temporal power is subject to the spiritual power, as the body to the soul, and therefore that the temporal power, even the royal, can be directed and corrected, judged and changed by the spiritual power, which is found most fully in the Pope, when it strays.
People. Lastly, the threats which you add to your command we wonder at indeed, and in part we fear; but yet we are not so timid as to fear them more than we ought, or to be so terrified by them as, for fear of an unjust excommunication, to deny the just and rightly owed service to our king. For although it is commonly tossed about that every excommunication is to be feared, yet one must know that an unjust excommunication does not harm him against whom it is pronounced, but rather him by whom it is pronounced; if therefore you strike us with the sword's point of anathema because we refuse, at your command, to overstep the commandment of God and do evil, the curse will be turned into a blessing, so that, although we seem bound outwardly, inwardly we remain loosed and innocent.
Pontiff. This surely is what the Wise Man says: The wicked man, when he is come into the depth of sins, contemneth. Pride has driven you headlong into this pit, because you have made yourself the judge of divine and heavenly things; and sunk in the depth of this pit you despise the judgment not only of the Vicar of Christ, but even of Christ himself. For even if you say that you fear the threats of the Church's censures, yet when you boldly pronounce that you will not obey them, you not only shut out fear, but add manifest contempt; for he who truly fears at least from fear keeps the commands. But what you say, that an unjust sentence does not harm him against whom it is pronounced, is true when he against whom it is pronounced humbly bears and observes it, until its injustice, or rather its nullity, manifestly shows itself. But when he against whom it is pronounced proudly despises it, and boldly transgresses the commands, if the unjust or null excommunication does not harm him, yet the pride and swelling with which he despises the commands of the Shepherd harms him. But these things would need to be said if the censure and commands of which we now speak bore any appearance of injustice or nullity. But when the Vicar of Christ, under pain of excommunication, orders the peoples not to obey a king who is a heretic, or otherwise justly excommunicated and deposed, what suspicion of injustice can arise? For not, as you falsely affirm, does the Pontiff strike you with the sword's point of anathema because you refuse, at his command, to overstep the commandment of God and do evil; but on the contrary rather, because you wish, the Pontiff forbidding, to transgress the commandment of God, and to do the evil of disobedience. For nowhere has God commanded that the people render service to a heretical king, excommunicated and deposed; but he has commanded that it avoid heretics, and not even say to them, God speed you; that it obey its Shepherd, and hear his voice.
And these are the things which it pleased Barclay to say in the person of the people; to which I have answered not without some vexation, since it much irks me to lose time and labour in replying so often to the same things; and yet, this childish apostrophe at last finished, Barclay boasts that by the firmest demonstrations and inescapable arguments the whole matter is concluded.
Show the Latin (Vives edition, OCR)
CAPUT XXXI. Dialogismus inter Populum nimis addictum regi terreno , et pontificem populo salubri¬ ter consulentem. Pop. — Pater sancte, nequaquam es re¬ ge nostro in temporalibus superior : ideoque non potes obsequium temporale, quod illi praestamus, impedire. Pont. — Quando salus tua aeterna in peri¬ culum adducitur propter obsequium tempo¬ rale, quod regi praestas ; tunc omnino supe¬ rior sum rege tuo etiam in temporalibus : nam et illum, et te ad vitam aeternam diri¬ gere debeo ; et omnia impedimenta de me¬ dio tollere, quae hoc iter impediunt. Pop. — Cur nos facere prohibes, quod Deus nos facere imperat? Pont. — Absit ; non hoc prohibeo, sed contra potius impero, ne facias, quod Deus te facere prohibet. Ego pastor sum a Christo, qui Dominus gregis est, constitutus. Vos populi, oviculae estis, reges vestri arietes sunt. Itaque dum reges vestri arietes esse perseverant, sino ut vos regant, et ducant : sed si vertantur in lupos, aequum ne erit, ut patiar duci oves Domi ii mei a lupis ? Ita¬ que jure veto, ne illos sequamini : nam et hoc Dominus vetat, quoniam cum nimis grandi periculo oviculae reguntur a lupis. Pop. — An quia tuum est, voluntatem Dei in lege divina, et Scripturis comprehensam interpretari ? Pont. — Tu dixisti. Pop. — At non est tamen illa interpretatio adhibenda, quae legem penitus evacuet, et mandatum omnino destruat, ac dissolvat. Pont. — Quam legem Dei interpretando destruximus, aut dissolvimus unquam, vel praedecessores mei, vel ego ? Pop. — Si quid dubii, aut obscuri est in lege divina, ad sedem Petri, id est, ad se¬ dem, quam tu nunc tenes, interpretationis veritatem accepturi confugimus : quod autem per se clarum est, et perspicuum, id nulla interpretationis luce indiget. IN REBUS TEMPORALIBUS 89 Pont. — Quid tum ? Pop. — Cum Dominus, et Salvator noster jubeat, nos reddere Csesari, quae sunt Caesa¬ ris et quae sunt Dei Deo : et deinde per Apo¬ stolum principibus, et potestatibus subditos esse, et dicto obedire : tuum est nobis de¬ clarare, quae sunt Caesaris, id est, quae a nobis regi nostro debentur, et quae sunt Dei> ut sua utrique reddamus ; et in ea distin¬ ctione vocem tuam libenter audiemus. At cum dicis, nolite quidquam Caesari, sive principi vestro reddere, contradicis Christo, ac proinde vocem tuam non audimds. Pont. — Quando Dominus dixit : Reddite quae sunt Caesaris Csesari, jussit censum da¬ ri ei, qui tunc imperabat, neque Judaeos ad idololatriam cogebat, neque adhuc erat ab ulla legitima potestate depositus : quod idem jussit multo antea per Hieremiam Prophe¬ tam Deus fieri erga Nabuchodono-or regem Babylonis propter eamdem causam, sed cum tempore Machabseorum Antiochus rex popu¬ lum avertebat a fide, et Religione divina, non jussit Deus ut eum pro rege habere per¬ gerent, sed inspiravit Mathathiae, et filiis ejus, viris fortissimis, ut exercitu congre¬ gato bellum cum Antiocho tamquam cura hoste gererent, et populum in libertatem vindicarent. Sic igitur et tu, popule Christia¬ ne, regi legitimo, et qui a lege Dei, et Catho¬ lica Religione tenon avertit, quique propter- ea a me Christi Vicario amatur ut filius, reddes obedientiam debitam, in iis, quae contra legem Dei, et fidem Catholicam non jubebit. Regem autem, qui te sive blandi¬ tiis, sive alio modo a via, quae ducit ad vi-' tam, revocare conatur, et per sententiam meam a coetu piorum ejectus, et regno pri¬ vatus est, pro rege non habebis ; sed obe¬ dientiam civilem regi debitam alteri exhibe¬ bis, qui in ejus locum legitime successerit. Porro Deo, quae Dei sunt reddes, quando fide, spe, et charitate Deum coles, neque ullius hominis timore, vel amore separari te sines. Itaque numquam ex me audies, nolite quidquam Csesari aut principi vestro red¬ dere, sed hoc audies, nolite seduci, ut etiam pro Csesare, aut principes vestro habeatis, qui re vera Gsesar, et princeps esse desiit. Pop. — Fatemur quidem, et profitemur sanctitatis tua? expositioni atque interpreta¬ tioni in legis divinae observatione locum esse : sed eam non admitti asserimus, quse „ facit ut jus naturale, et divinum sit ludibrio, et penitus contemnatur, veluti ne a re, de qua agitur, aberremus : jubemur principi¬ bus, et potestatibus obedire : tuas in hujus mandati observatione explicationes, et re¬ strictiones, quae modo mandatum ipsum non extinguunt, tamquam filii obedientes liben¬ ter amplectimur .• veluti cum nullam inde obligationem parendi regibus oriri dicas, nisi in iis, quee ad temporalem ipsorum ju¬ risdictionem pertinent , spiritualia omnia Vicario Christi, atque Ecclesiae reservanda esse. Item cum admones non esse regi obe- diendum in eo, quod contra jus divinum, vel naturale imperat, aut quod alioqui bonis moribus adversatur. At quando simpliciter, et absolute praecipis, ne principi nostro le¬ gitimo, ejusve monitis, mandatis, et legibus ullo modo obediamus : praecepto tuo parere non possumus, quia hoc non est mandata Dei interpretari, quod sanctitati tuae conce¬ ditur : sed penitus antiquare, et abrogare, quod nullo modo potes. Pont. — In multiloquio non deerit pecca¬ tum : videris enim ex Barclaiialicujus schola prodiisse, dum tot verba sine ratione multi¬ plicas : gravius autem peccas dum doctorem tuum docere, et legislatori legem dare prae¬ sumis : sed gravissime delinquis, et erras, dum Christi Vicario imponis, quod faciat jus naturale, et divinum ludibrio haberi, quodque mandatum Dei de obedientia prin¬ cipibus debita antiquare, et abrogare velit, nusquam, enim ego, aut praedecessores mei simpliciter, et absolute (ut tu loqueris) prae¬ cepimus, ne principi legitimo, ejusve mo¬ nitis, mandatis, et legibus ullo modo obe- diatur. Istae calumniae, et imposturae sunt doctoris tui Barclaii : quod enim dicimus, et docemus, hoc est, ut principi ab Ecclesia, publica auctoritate excommunicato, et de¬ posito, qui proinde legitimus princeps esse desiit, nulla deinceps obedientia debeatur. Id vero cum nullo divino mandato pugnat : divinum enim mandatum non hoc habet, ut ei, qui princeps legitimus esse desiit, obe¬ dientia deferatur. Tu vero diligenter atten¬ de, et expende, utrum majorem fidem ha¬ bere debeas patri tuo, Christi Vicario, et matri tum Ecclesiae ; an uni falso fratri, qui te seducit, ac facit, ut contra mandatum Dei, patri, et matri non obedias : dum obe¬ dientia) regiae zeluin sine scientia vis ha¬ bere. Pop. — Christus cum claves regni coele¬ stis Petro tradidit, non dedit ei potestatem faciendi de peccato non peccatum. 90 DE POTESTATE PAPiE Pont. — Nescis qnid loquaris : siquidem in bono spnsu dedit Christus Petro potesUi- tem-fnciendi de peccato non peccatum, et de non peccato peccatum : peccatum est inire matrimonium in gradu prohibito, non jejunare in quadragesima, die festo laborare serviliter, et tamen ha?c omnia, et alia id genus plurima, dispensante Petro auctoritate clavium sibi datarum, peccata esse desinunt ; contra vero pntest Petrus addere novum gra¬ dum consanguinitatis et affinitatis, addere novum diem jejunii, addere novum diem fe¬ stum, et hinc lient peccata, si quis in gradu illo addito conjugium contrahat, aut diebus additis non jejunet, aut ab opere servili non se abstineat,, qum tamen antea peccata non fuissent. Sic igitur peccatum fuisset regi tali, vel tali non obeclire, et tamen si per claves Petri ille talis rex haereticus declare¬ tur, excommunicetur, et deponatur, jam non erit peccatum illi non obedire. Verum est tamen claves Petri ad id non se exten¬ dere, ut possit summus Pontifex declarare, non esse peccatum quod est peccatum, aut esse peccatum, quod peccatum non est : id enim esset dicere malum bonum, et bonum malum : quod longissime abest, et semper abfuit, et aberit a doctrina illius, qui Ecclesiae preeest, quae est columna : et firmamentum veritatis. Pop. — Nos igitur communem Canonista- rum doctrinam in hac parte sequemur, qui tradunt, mandato Papae non esse parendum, si vel injustum sit : vel ex eo multa mala, seu scandalum verisimiliter est futurum, aut turbatio sta us Ecclesiae, et reipub. Christianae orituia , et ideo si Papa mandai- ret Religiosis aliquid, quod esset contra substantiam ordinis, id est, quod repugna¬ ret regulae ab iis professae, ut interpre¬ tatur Felinus, id caap. Accepimus de fid. in- strum. et cap. Si quando, de rescrip., non tenentur ei obedire : ut idem Innocentius docet in cap. Ne Dei, de * imonia, quem re¬ fert, et sequimur Martinus de Coraziis, in tract. de Principibus quaest. 498. et Felinus dicto cap. Si quando, et dicto cap. Accepi¬ mus : quanto igitur minus debent regum subditi Pontificem, eos ab obediontia jute divino, et naturali regi suo debita, et arctis¬ simo juris jmandi fuedere sancita, retrahere corumtem audii e ? Pont. — f use sit communis sententia non solum caiionistirum, sed etiam theologo¬ rum, et juris civilis peritorum, imo et ipso¬ rum sacrorum conciliorum discere poteris ex prolegomenis hujus libri, ubi communi consensu affirmatur jure posse a Summo Pontifice justis de causis regem excommu¬ nicari, et deponi et subditos ab omni obe- dientim et fidelitatis vinculo liberari. Non est autem credibile, Ganonistas omnes securn ipsos pugnare. Cum ergo dicunt aliqui Ca- nonistarum non esse obediendum Pontifici quando mandatum ipsius injustum est, aut scandalorum, et perturbationis causa ; pri¬ mum, non loquuntur de Pontifice ex Cathe¬ dra docente Ecclesiam universam : deinde non loquuntur absolute, sed conditionaliter, id est, si id fieret, si forte contingeret, ut Pontifex alicui particulari homini mandaret aliquid contra legem Dei ; tunc enim nota est S. Petri doctrina, Act. v : Obediendum est Deo magis, quam hominibus. Sed quan- cln Pontifices precdecessores mei, ut Grego- rius VII., Innocentius IV. et alii principes magnos excommunicare, ac deponere, et subditos eorum ab obedientia liberare vo¬ luerunt, id fecerunt ex Cathedra, in conci¬ lio, poblica caeremonia, ex auctoritate Dei, et sanctorum Apostolorum Petri, et Pauli sibi divinitus communicata : proinde, qui di¬ cit, non esse obediendum Vicario Christi, ita praecipienti, is universam condemnat Eccle¬ siam, et non tam canonista, quam canonum depravator dici debet, et quamquam non existimamus ullum bonum canonistam in hunc errorem incidisse : tamen si quis esset, secure posset Ii dolis Christianus, et prudens uni, vel alteri canonistee Qonditores canc- num anteponere : quod autem dicis, jure divino, et naturali deberi obedienliam regi¬ bus : verum est de regibus legitimis, et nondum per seifentiam judicis depositis : et quoniam ab horum, non ab illorum obe- dientla te retrahimus ; propterca vel falsum nobis imponis, vel frustra de nobis quereris. Pop. — Si ob eam causam non jubes regis nortri jugum abjicere, quod per obe- d entiam illi exhibitam, spirituale bonum im;.ediatur ; respondemus, id quicquid est mali, ex quodam accidente eve dre, sive per accidens lieri : malum enim ex bono, aut bonum ex malo per se oriri non potent : ac¬ cidens autem illud dolenter ferimus, sed impedire non possumus. Nos olficium regis debitum Dei jussu perso viinus, et secundum patientiam boni operis gloriam, honorem, et incorruplionem queerim .s, ille si debito sibi obsequio, et tanto Dei beneficio abuta- IN REBUS TEMPORALIBUS 91 tur, Dpum supra se judicem, et vindicem acerrimum sentiet : nobis non licet officium deserere, et Dei mandatum praeterire, ut bonum inde, quantumvis magnum conse¬ quatur, ne eam, quam Apostolus nunciat, nobis ipsis acquiramus. Pont. — Videtur tibi satis apte convenire, quod Spiritus sanctus per os David prophe¬ tae, et regis ait : Noluit intelligere, ut bene ageret : siquidem detrimentum spirituale, id est, periculum subversionis animarum, quod est annexum obedientiae ad regem haereticum, praesertim quando is rex fidem Catholicam molitur evertere, sufficiens causa est Vicario Christi, qui super totam Christi familiam constitutus est, ut regem illum excommunicationis sententia feriat, et domi¬ nio illo privet, quod super fideles habebat. Ubi vero rex, alioqui legitimus, ob detri¬ mentum spirituale regno privatus est, per sententiam ejus, qui Ecclesiam universam regit, non solum non tenetur populus illi parere, sed tenetur non parere ; ac per hoc cum illi jure deposito obedientiam prae¬ bet, non per accidens, sed per se causa est mali, et inobedientiae peccatum incurrit, ut inobedientiae peccatum evitet. Neque officium regi debitum Dei jussu persol¬ vit ; sed officium regi, indebitum Deo pro¬ hibente persolvit, qui vero regi, ut dictum est, jure deposito obedientiam denegat, non facit malum, ut bonum inde sequatur : sed facit bonum, ut malum gravissimum evite¬ tur : neque damnationem sibi ipse acquirit, sed a damnatione, quam alioqui incurreret liberatur. Quod si haec non intelligis, popule stulte et insipiens : cur non audis me Pasto¬ rem tuum ? cur judicio tuo fidis ? cur sedu¬ ceris ab alieno ? Oves certe Pastorem pro¬ prium sequuntur , quia sciunt vocem ejus : alienum autem non sequuntur , sed fugiunt ab eo, quia non noverunt vocem alienonum , inquit Veritas, Joan. x. Pop. — Qui jubet nos regibus obedire, et reddere Caesari quae sunt Caesaris, nullam bonos inter et malos principes distinctionem facit, ac per hoc nec nos distinguere debe¬ mus. Pont. — Addo etiam cum Apostolo Petro, obediendum esse non tantum bonis, et mo¬ destis, si d etiam dyscolis, 1 Petr. n. Itaque non distinguimus inter bonos et ma os, dum superiores sunt : sed quaestio nostra est, an sit obediendum regi per sententiam rejecto, ac deposito ; huic enim obedientiam exhi¬ beri Christus non jubet, et Vicarius Christi prohibet : proinde qui obedientiam illi ex¬ hibet, Christo non obsequitur, et Vicaiium Christi laedit. Pop. — Si, ut docet B. Augustinus, is qui continentiam Deo voverit, nullo modo debet ista compensatione peccare, ut ideo credat uxorem sibi esse ducendam, quia promisit quae nuptias ejus appetit, futuram se esse Christianam : atque ita acquirat Christo animam in morte infidelitatis positae feminae, quae parata est, si huic nupserit fieri Christiana qua nos apud Deum excusa¬ tione utemur, si ut speratum aliquod bonum eveniat, juris, urandi religionem, et fidem violemus Deo, regique nostro datam ! nihil enim anima pretiosius, pro qua Dominus, et Salvator mori dignatus est : si ergo ut eam Christo lucremur, peccare non liceret, eccu- jus rei causa peccandum ? Pont. — Non sunt facienda mala, ut ve¬ niant bona, haec doctrina Apostolica est, ac per hoc et nostra : hinc non licet votum ca¬ stitatis violare, ut animas Christo lucremur: neque licet contra jurisjurandi religionem aliquid facere, ut mundum universum sal¬ vum faciamus : sed non ideo non licet mihi, cui Christus dixit in persona S. Petri, Quod- cumque solveris super terram, erit solutum et in coelis, et in votis dispensare, et a jura¬ menti vinculo solvere ; qui autem Apostolica auctoritate, vel voto, vel juramento solutus est, jam non peccat contra votum, vel jura¬ mentum, si ea faciat, quae antea ligatus voto, vel juramento facere non poterat : quemad¬ modum enim inter homines, qui debet alteri pecunias, peccat, si non restituat : sed si creditor solverit debitorem obligatione red¬ dendi, jam non peccabit etiam si numquam restituat : sic etiam dum votum, aut jura¬ mentum viget, et ligat : peccat qui illa non servat; sed si Vicarius Dei, accepta a Deo auctoritate, et ipsius Dei nomine relaxat obligationem voti, vel juramenti, jam non peccat qui ea non servat : stulta igitur est illa interrogatio tua, eccujus gratia peccan¬ dum? quasi hoc a populo Sacerdos discere opus habeat. Pop. — Quod autem praeterea dicis, te nos ab hujus officii vinculo absolvere, atque ab¬ solutos declarare : id non omnem conscien¬ tiis nostris scrupulum adimit; sed animo pendere, ac dubitare magis de tua potestate facit : quod sciamus praeceptum, cujus tu nobis gratiam tu facturum promittis. Dei et 92 DE POTESTATE PAPjE naturae lege esse sancitum : sanctitatum vero tuam non posse, ne quidem de plenitudine potestatis, legis naturalis, et divinae gratiam cuiquam tacere. Pont. — Jam indocilem omnino te prae¬ bes, cum ad eadem semper revolveris. Non ego tibi gratiam facio praecepti naturalis, vel divini, cum ab obedientice vinculo te absol¬ vo, non enim permitto ut regi non pareas, quod esset contra jus divinum ; sed facio, ut ille qui tibi rex erat, nor; sit tibi deinceps rex : quemadmodum, qui donat servum li¬ bertate, non concedit, ut servus non tenea¬ tur obedire Domino, quod esset etiam con¬ tra jus divinum : sed facit ut Dominum non habeat, cui obediat, ct qui filium emanci¬ pando eximit a potestate patria, non docet liberum esse filiis, parentibus non obedire, sed facit ut ille, qui filius erat, jam non cen¬ seatur filius. Et qui votum, aut juramentum relaxat, non dat facultatem violandi vota, vel juramenta, sed facit, ut non habeat vo¬ tum, vel juramentum. Pop. — Tibi igitur in spiritualibus, regi in temporalibus obsequemur ; utrumque Deus jubet, utrumque praestabimus. Pont. — Si (ut paulo ante dicebas) pen¬ debas animo, et dubitabas; cur in re dubia te ipse judicem constituisti, et tam audacter conclusisti? Deus certe in Deuter. cap. xvii. in rebus dubiis, et obscuris remittit homines ad Sacerdotem, nec vult ut unusquisque sit judex. Et tu ipse paulo ante dixisti, in rebus dubiis ad Sedem Petri esse confugiendum; cur igitur in dubitatione tam gravi ad lo¬ cum, quem elegit Dominus, id est, ad Se¬ dem Petri non confugisti? Ac ut intelligas te tua conclusione nihil effecisse : attende pri¬ mum, Deum quidem jubere, ut Pontifici obe- dias in spiritualibus, sed non jubere ut in spiritualibus tantum ; imo jubere, ut conse¬ quenter etiam obedias in temporalibus, sed regi qui legitime regnat, non regi, qui ob haeresim, vel alia justa de causa regno pri¬ vatus est ; nam et ipsi Pontifici obedire non deberes in spiritualibus, si forte (quod fieri non posse pie credimus) in haeresim lapsus ab Ecclesia Pontificatu privatus esse denun- ciaretur. Attende postremo, dubitationem de potestate Papa;, an ad temporalia se exten¬ dat non esse dubitationem de re temporali, sed de re spirituali, et supernaturali, quae¬ que non ab arbitrio, vel judicio hominum, sed ab intelligentia Scripturarum et inter¬ pretatione voluntatis divinae dependet, quare non tuo judicio, sed Ecclesiae in tam gravi dubitatione stare debuisti. Ecclesia vero, et per caput suum Christi Vicarium, et per Concilia, id est, per principalia membra sua, et per docto res theologos, et canonistas, id est, per linguas suas, non obscure docuit, Potestati spirituali subjectam esse potesta¬ tem temporalem, ut corpus animae, et ideo potestatem temporalem , etiam regiam , a potestate spirituali, qure plenissime reperitur in Papa, dirigi, et corrigi, judicari, et mu¬ tari posse, cum deviat. Pop. — Minas denique, quas mandato in¬ feris miramur quidem, et ex parte metui¬ mus : sed non ita sumus meticulosi tamen, ut plus eas, quam oportet timeamus, aut iis ita terreamur, ut metu injustae excommuni¬ cationis, justum, ac jure debitum obsequium regi nostro denegemus. Licet enim vulgo jactetur, omnem excommunicationem esse timendam : scire tamen oportet injustam ex¬ communicationem, non laedere eum in quem fertur, sed eum potius a quo fertur : si ideo nos anathematis mucrone ferias, quia nolu¬ mus mandatum Dei, te jubente, praetergredi, et malum facere, maledictio vertetur in be¬ nedictionem, ut, quamvis ligati exterius vi¬ deamur, interius soluti, atque innocentes maneamus. Pont. — Hoc nimirum est quod Sapiens dicit : Impius cum in profundum venerit, contemnit. In hanc te foveam praecipitem egit superbia, quia te ipse judicem rerum divinarum, et coelestium constituisti ; et in hujus foveae profundum demersus judicium non solum Vicarii Christi, sed ipsius etiam Christi contemnis. Nam etiam si timere te dicas minas censurarum Ecclesiae ; tamen cum audacter pronuncias, eis te non pari¬ turum, non solum timorem excludis, sed addis manifeste contemptum : qui enim ve¬ re timet, saltem ex timore mandata obser¬ vat. Quod autem dicis, injustam sententiam non laedere eum, in quem fertur, verum est quando is, in quem fertur, eam humiliter tolerat, et observat, donec injustitia, vel po¬ tius nullitas ejus manifeste se prodat. Sed cum is, in quem fertur, eam superbe con¬ temnit, et audacter mandata transgreditur, si non laedit eum excommunicatio injusta, vel nulla, laedit tamen superbia, et tumor, quo Pastoris mandata contemnit. Sed haec dicenda essent, si censura, et mandata, de quibus nunc loquimur, aliquam injustitiae, vel nullitatis speciem prae se ferrent. At cum IN REBUS TEMPORALIBUS 93 Vicarius Christi sub excommunicationis poe¬ na populis jubet, ut regi haeretico, vel alias juste excommunicato, atque deposito, non obediant : quae suspicio injustitiae suboriri potest? non enim ut tu falso affirmas, Pon¬ tifex anathematis mucrone te ferit, quia non vis mandatum Dei, ipso jubente, praetergredi, et malum facere : sed contra potius, quia mandatum Dei, Pontifice prohibente , vis transgredi, et malum inobedientiae facere. Nusquam enim mandavit Deus, ut regi hae¬ retico, et excommunicato, ac deposito, po¬ pulus obsequium praestet; sed mandavit, ut haereticos vitet, et ne Ave quidem illis dicat, ut Pastori suo obediat, et vocem ejus au¬ diat. Atque haec sunt, quae Barclaio in persona populi dicere placuit; ad quae non sine sto¬ macho respondi, cum valde me pigeat ea¬ dem toties replicando tempus, et operam perdere : et tamen hac puerili apstrophe tandem finita, jactat Barclaius firmissimis demonstrationibus, et ineluctabilibus argu¬ mentis rem totam esse conclusam.